Ascending Together: Inclusivity and Growth in Minnesota's Climbing Community

In this episode of Explore Minnesota More, we delve into Minnesota's thriving world of rock climbing. Our guests, Sarah Vanderheiden, president of the Minnesota Climbing Cooperative, and Rodel Querubin, chair of the BIPOC Beta initiatives for the Twin Cities chapter of the American Alpine Club, share their experiences and insights into this rapidly growing sport. 

They discuss the unique community aspect of climbing, its mental and physical benefits, and the diverse opportunities available in Minnesota - from indoor gyms to outdoor crags. The conversation touches on the importance of inclusivity in climbing, with Rodel explaining the mission of BIPOC Beta. 

Sarah highlights the Minnesota Climbing Cooperative model and how it fosters a supportive environment for climbers of all levels. Both guests offer valuable advice for beginners and share their perspectives on the future of climbing in Minnesota. 

This episode provides an inspiring look at how rock climbing is not just about conquering walls but building communities and pushing personal boundaries.

Important Links:

• Minnesota Climbing Cooperative
• BIPOC Beta Event Calendar
• American Alpine Club Twin Cities Chapter
• Minnesota Climbers Association
• Duluth Climbers Coalition

Credits: 
Producer/Interviewer: Randolph Briley
Hosts: Sarah Strommen and Lauren Bennett McGinty
Original Music by Andrew Haaheim and Alsever Lake
 

Credits:
Producer: Randolph Briley
Hosts: Sarah Strommen and Lauren Bennett McGinty
Original Music by Andrew Haaheim and Alsever Lake

Transcript

 One of the things that I always really love to see in our community is when someone is trying something that is like a relatively easy grade, but really hard for them. People cheer just as loud as they would for someone who's trying something that would be like a really, really difficult route. So even if even if someone is, you know, trying something that's not that hard compared to what you would be climbing, people are still cheering them on like crazy. I love seeing that. Welcome to Explore Minnesota more. Your podcast about the visionaries, champions and entrepreneurs and communities making Minnesota a world class outdoor recreation destination. Today, we're scaling new heights as we explore the world of rock climbing in the land of 10,000 lakes. This will be a constant theme of our podcast, introducing activities that aren't often considered when someone thinks outdoor recreation in Minnesota. We'll be hearing from Sarah van der Heiden, president of the Minnesota Climbing Cooperative, and Rodel Ruben, chair of the Bipoc beater initiatives for the Twin Cities chapter of American Alpine Club. They'll share their experiences, insights and passion for a sport that's not just about conquering walls, but building communities. And it's a sport that absolutely exploded in recent years. According to Climbing Business Journal, at the end of 2023, a total of 622 climbing gyms were opened in the United States, compared to 353 games in 2014. So that's a 76% increase in less than a decade. That is amazing. And with that popularity, competition climbing was included for the first time in the Tokyo Olympics in 2020, where Minnesota's own Kira Condie, born and raised in Shoreview, competed against some of the best climbers in the world. Yes, and for those of you who watched, it was an incredible experience to see them speed climb up those walls. Um, and I'm excited to hear a little bit more about those experiences overall in Minnesota. So put your harness on, chalk up your hands as we go to Sarah and Rodel to explore the vertical playground that is Minnesota's climbing scene. Come explore Minnesota. It's a hoot and don't yet know about the Marvelous Minnesotan tour. Creating and promoting different spaces and adventure to explore our great outdoors. And since you're here, you'll hear the reasons to enjoy all of our season. Since the North Star States, 10,000 lakes and all space in between is the perfect place to venture with your friends and family. Family. Sara and Rudel, thanks for joining us today on Explore Minnesota More. Can you take a quick moment and share with our listeners a little bit more about your background? So I'm Sarah Vander Heiden, the president of the Minnesota Climbing Cooperative, which is a gym in northeast Minneapolis that's entirely owned and operated by the members that climb there. Um, I started climbing maybe 12 years ago and have been climbing outside pretty much since I started, um, and have been on the co-op board of the Minnesota Climbing Cooperative for the last six years. So I've been in the community for a while. Yeah. Um, I'm Rodale cabin. Um, my pronouns are he him. Um, I'm the, uh, Bipoc, uh, which stands for black, indigenous, and People of Color. Um, initiatives chair for the Twin Cities chapter of the American Alpine Club. Um, that wing, uh, is now called, uh, Bipoc beater as of end of last year. Uh, we've been partnering with, uh, Minnesota climbing co-ops since July of 2021 on running. Uh, thanks to their generosity. Free monthly, uh, what we're calling, uh. Bipod climbing mixers, which allow people the chance to, uh, meet other Bipoc climbers. And hopefully it's a mix of folks who are experienced and beginners. And the idea being that we provide a relaxed environment with, um, uh, beer, drinks, other snacks and such and hopefully form, uh, community connections. So they end up going outside with other folks who kind of, uh, can show them, uh, what it is to climb outdoors, the local crags and the etiquette of going outside. I'd love to learn more about how both of you got started in indoor rock climbing. So I started rock climbing. My sister actually got me into it. Um, she had joined one of the youth teams, um, at Vertical Endeavors, which was really one of the only commercial gyms available at the time. And then my brother also joined the youth team. And then with both of them climbing, I started climbing. Um, and then funny enough, I've continued and they have both since moved on to other activities. But that was how I got my start. Um, and pretty soon after I had started climbing in the gym, um, I met a folks, a group of folks at the gym who had gear to climb outside and started climbing outside with them. Yeah. For me. Um, I started indoor climbing back in, I think, 2008, and I was introduced to it, um, from a co-worker. Um, at the time, I was more kind of a stereotypical gym rat, more just kind of into, uh, kind of lifting weights and a little bit of running and, and all those things to kind of keep in shape. Um, and so I found rock climbing to be kind of this, um, interesting new novel thing to do. And the more that I did it and the more that I got introduced to other folks who are more experienced, um, just kind of fell in love with the movement. Um, and similarly, once I got my taste of outdoor climbing, uh, that's really when things kind of ramped up for me. So can you share with me? Maybe, um, either outdoor or indoor. Doesn't matter. Um, a memorable moment from when you first started climbing and, like, what? Really hooked you on climbing? I think for me, what hooked me was probably the puzzle of the movement. Um, I'm also an engineer for work, and I really love solving problems and doing puzzles and things like that. And really, all the rock climbing routes were essentially like you were solving a puzzle with your body and trying to figure out what it was, the right combination of moves. Um, so that I think was probably really hooked me. Um, and then also the combination of I've always loved being outside. I grew up outside all the time. Um, so then also being able to do a sport that I liked and it was fully like it was outdoors, I was pretty hooked. Yeah. And I would say it's a very similar story for me. Um, and actually, because I do more mentoring and instruction these days, it's very similar with a lot of folks in that. Yeah, just the idea of problem solving with your body in three dimensional space, um, was, uh, very compelling. And then just the, um, the stoke that you got from being able to do something once you've unlocked that secret movement or extra bit of strength needed to, to, um, figure out the problem or the route. Um, so that was from a indoors perspective. And then for outdoors, kind of opposite of Sarah, I was actually wasn't much of a outdoors person before, uh, rock climbing and uh, before actually moving to Minnesota in general. Um, and so it was an opportunity to experience the outdoors. Through the, uh, through rock climbing and, uh, and one of my first outdoors experiences actually was at the North Shore climbing right over Lake Superior, which is a very unique thing that we we have here in the state. And, uh, and that was just as incredible as my friends at the time had made it look through pictures and their descriptions of how incredible it would be. And sure enough, it was, um, it became at that point less about the climbing and the fact that you were, you know, 50ft over, uh, 50 to 100ft over Lake Superior with crashing waves and just had to make it back up to the, uh, the cliff edge that you've just been lowered down from. That's my favorite spot to climb in Minnesota, too. Any specific routes in that area? Um, I guess jumping in again from just kind of an instructional perspective, I would hope that people also make sure that they get the right mentorship and instruction to climb out there. It is no joke climbing in general, much less over Lake Superior. Um, but luckily from an infrastructure perspective, there are some comically large bolts on some of the very popular, uh, routes out there, uh, that the, uh, I don't know if I'm getting my history right, but some of the old school Minnesota climbing history buffs could get this rib. I think their, the engineers, uh, asked what type of bolts that they want installed, and the typical bolt that we use for sport climbing outside is probably about yea big, and it just looks like the engineers took that and multiplied it several times the size and were like that looks good and had those installed. Uh, so it makes it easier to climb out there if you're climbing on those particular bolts, but uh, out on a limb, um, only because it's. Sometimes in climbing outside especially, it can be hard to find your exact route. This route is exactly what it looks like. You start from a branch that literally grows out near the bottom of the climb, and you start literally right on top of it and then climb your way back up. Um, and then I dance. Of the Sugar Plum Fairies is another great one out there, only because, uh, you can go a few feet to the left of straight center to get a different type of climb, and you can climb a few feet to the right, get a much different climb. So there's a lot of variety from just that one rope line and gives you a lot of variety out there. Um, and it's, it's just a cool name to a climbing route. Names are always, always fun. Talking about indoor, going back to indoor rock climbing, um, how is it? And we're talking about the benefits of, of indoor rock climbing or outdoor rock climbing. And in y'all's experience, I would love to hear more about what you feel some of the the benefits have been for you personally with rock climbing, whether it's physical or mental or community. I'd love to hear more about that, that perspective from you all. Um, for me, all of the above, I mean it. Rock climbing is a great workout. Full body workout. Definitely. Um, and then I also would say it's a very social sport. Um, if you're rope climbing, you tend to need a partner. You need a player to hold you up on the rope. Um, and then bouldering, which is where you would be climbing shorter walls with no ropes. There's a lot of rest time in between, and I'm usually using that time at the gym for chatting with the people around me and saying hi to people I haven't met. And so you do. I spend you make a lot of new friends through climbing, or at least I have. Um, and I think climbing definitely for me mentally is what I have turned to when I'm having a bad day at work or something else in my life is going on The climbing gym always feels like a constant of where I can go to kind of bring me back into the right headspace. Yeah. And, uh, I would echo that. And also just the amount of moods and head spaces that climbing will support. I totally echo that. It can be very, uh, social. And the community aspect is fantastic. And I know folks who, uh, myself included, who, um, have a long time friends and, uh, community members that they've gotten to know just through through climbing. Um, but I will also say that if you're in a particular type of mood where you just need to be by yourself, um, you can just go to the gym and do some bouldering routes on your own. Just clear your head. Um, just kind of be in your own headspace and just use that, uh, mental energy to really focus. Uh, that's something that I really like about rock climbing. Is that, um. For me. I'm kind of sort of kind of on the ADHD spectrum. Um, enough to say that it really benefits me to have activities in my life that require just, uh, absolute concentration and focus. And rock climbing absolutely fits the bill for that, not only from a movement and problem solving perspective, but also when you're belaying or, uh, setting up anchors or doing all the other technical things. It requires a high level of, uh, uh, expertise and focus in order to do all those things correctly and make sure everybody is, um, as safe as possible. Is there anything else you do in your life that has the same level of focus or flow that you. Yeah, I think you need intense focus, especially if you're trying really hard on a particular move that's at your limit. You're going to be hyper focused. And I think maybe the only other sport I've done or I guess other activity where I feel like that is if you're doing some mountain biking and you're trying to get over a specific obstacle, you could like kind of a similar level of focus. But I'm much more of a rock climber than a mountain biker, so that happens to me way more with climbing than biking. Yeah. Yeah. For me, I think, uh, the only other thing I could say reproaches. That is when I'm, uh, snowboarding. Um, and even then, it's when I'm kind of really pushing it. Otherwise, if I'm just kind of taking it easy when my mind wanders and, uh, sometimes everywhere else that's up what I'm doing snowboarding. But when I'm like, really pushing it, um, that requires all my focus, uh, especially because I'm not that great of a snowboarder. So, um, just to to not eat it. Um, uh, when I'm really pushing it, it's, it's. Do you think it's possible to put into words the feeling that you, you get after a, after you top out on a long pitch or you've done a big climb. Is it possible to even describe that to folks what it feels like to do that? I don't know that I've ever tried. Um, I feel like it's kind of a mix of, like, being proud that you made it and I. Yeah, that maybe is the main emotion for me and, you know, feeling, I guess, satisfied that you tried to do something that was really pushing yourself and you were able to do it. I don't know if you have thoughts. Yeah, I think it really depends on where you are as far as your experience levels and what your relationship to climbing is. I think for me, when I was first starting, it was, yeah, a lot of, um, uh, a lot of pride and, uh, feelings of accomplishment, uh, when I was newer, just because, uh, it seemed like every month or so I was doing, uh, you know, making progress in one way, doing climbs I never thought I'd be able to do or, uh, reaching new grades. Um, and then, uh, as I got more experience and the, uh, grades weren't coming as easily. Um, you had to work more, um, for particular projects. Uh, I think it's more kind of like when you have a, a long term project or a long term goal and you reach that. Um, I feel like it's this mix of, uh, kind of elation, but also like, relief, like. You've been working on it for so long, um, that you're just relieved you could do what you thought and what you had put out to do. Um, and so oftentimes when I get, uh, to the top of a climb and it finally goes, um, it's just a it's just like who? Finally I've gotten it, and it's just a relief that I did at that go. Um, and then kind of like, I think for a lot of people who are, uh, goal setters, then it's on to like, well, now what's the next thing? Um, I feel a lot of relief, too, at the top of a climb, especially if you're doing something at your limit. That's kind of a scary move for you. Sometimes you're relieved that you made it to the next bolts, or I feel that as a person who falls off the top of a project a lot, usually it's relief when I get to the top and then and then I think a lot of the, uh, in those cases, especially a lot of the, uh, the joy is a little bit delayed onset when, like, you start telling stories about the climb, especially if it's a long term project, uh, you're sharing beers or beverage of choice and telling the you're, you know, uh, long struggle with it. Then I think kind of let's win the, uh. Kind of the, the, the normal joy kind of comes out, uh, just in retrospect, the the all the all the things that you had to do to get to that point. I just I want to talk a little bit about the climbing community. I'd love to hear from you all about how you would describe, um, the indoor gym climbing community to someone else who's never even been a part or experienced that before. Um, I think I would say maybe to start, I think each gym has its own slightly different community. Um, there are definitely once you start climbing, there are different, different gyms within the city. You kind of attract a different sort of folks to each one. Um, I'm been climbing at the co-op for a long time. I would say the community there, a lot of the people are there very frequently, and it's a pretty small community. It's pretty tight knit. Um, so if you go, you'll see a lot of the same people over and over again, which is kind of nice. Um, if you're especially if you're trying to meet other people that might want to be climbing outside. Um, I think the community of that gym might be different than maybe the community of MBP or Vertical Endeavors. Um, I don't know if that's been your experience too. No, absolutely. And, um, with our programming, with Bipoc beta, um, we've been, uh, so fortunate to be able to run at practically all the local, um, climbing gyms. And so, uh, we always get this the feedback that the community and vibes that we get at Minnesota Climbing Co-op. Um, as Sarah said, it's, uh, a smaller venue, tight knit. It's just awesome. When, um, we get together as a group and, uh, you'll have somebody climbing and they've tried the problem a few times, and then the entire gym kind of turns to look at them as they're kind of topping out the problem, and then they make it. Then the entire gym erupts, Um, just to cheer them on. Uh, that is, uh, such a unique vibe for, uh, for the co-op in particular. Um, but then you've got some place like, uh, Minneapolis Bouldering Project. It has its own, um, community and vibes and then vertical endeavors with the rope climbing and even from there, different locations. Um, but I will say as far as, like, a common factor, I think we're all just, um, what's unique is that. At least for for for me, what I found is at the end of the day, we're all cheering it for each other on because it's us versus the problem versus, you know, something more competitive where we're competing against each other. I mean, of course we're, you know, there's some lighthearted competition as far as, uh, you know, trying to get a certain grade or a certain problem. Um, but ultimately the, you know, the the problem is and the root is just there and you can either do it or not. And we're all trying to find our own unique ways to, to make it up the wall. Um, so I think that, uh, thread kind of goes through all the different locations and all the different disciplines that, um, ultimately, especially for outdoors, the rock is always going to be there. And then that's just kind of up to you, um, and your abilities and your technique and all these different things. On whether you're up to the task of of climbing the route, um, and whether somebody else does it before or after you or any of those type of things, again, like, uh, it's always going to be there. So, um, more often than not, everybody is supportive of each other in getting their goals and climbing a particular route. One of the things that I always really love to see in our community is when someone is trying something that is like a relatively easy grade, but really hard for them. People cheer just as loud as they would for someone who's trying something that would be like a really, really difficult route. So even if even if someone is, you know, trying something that's not that hard compared to what you would be climbing, people are still cheering them on like crazy. I love seeing that. Can you tell us more about the Minnesota Climbing Co-op and its unique model? Yeah, sure. Um, so the Minnesota Climbing Co-op opened in April of 2011, so we've been open for almost 13 years. Um, at the time, the only other German town was vertical in Denver, Saint Paul. Um, there's been a lot more gyms that opened. But, um, for local endeavors, I think especially at the time was they're they're focused maybe more on first time climbers or other, um, groups of people that aren't necessarily the people that are coming back to the gym all day, every day. Um, so there was a group of people that and I wasn't necessarily one of the founding members. Um, but we still do have some involved with the co-op. Um, so people were really looking for a place that they could kind of create their own space, um, for climbing and have it be focused on the things that they were really looking for. Um, so that's how the Minnesota Climbing Co-op got started. So there was a group of maybe 25 or so people that got together. Um, and I think what decided on what determined the co-op model was that then really, everyone is a collective owner. You didn't just have a few people liable, either financially or responsible for running it. Um, and it's just kind of grown from there about how does the co-op help? How does it foster a supportive environment for climbers of all levels that want to climb? Yeah. Good question. Um, that's definitely been a topic of a lot of our board meetings, actually, when the board gets together, I think that's something we're always trying to find the right balance for. Um, we have a pretty small space, so it's kind of hard to pack everything in in terms of having enough climbs for someone who's just starting out and then also having enough climbs that are difficult and tiered, geared towards someone that's been climbing for a really long time. Um, I would say part of what we do to try to foster the really supportive community is hosting the community events. I know I mentioned earlier, but we do have we have a monthly social night for the Bipoc community. We have another social night for the LGBTQ community. We have some events that are specific to women. And, um, we have a lot of different social events, even for all of our members, too. We have, you know, a barbecue every year. We've got a lot of social activities to try to help build those relationships within our community. Um, especially since the co-op relies completely on volunteers, you have to be pretty invested in the community and to enable the co-op to keep running. Um, climbing and particularly gym climbing has been one of the fastest growing segments of outdoor recreation. How has that growth impacted the Minnesota Climbing Co-op? Yeah, I think even having more gyms in town has definitely introduced more people to climbing than we ever could be, in kind of a small space. Um, and now I think we definitely are starting to see that in our outdoor climbing areas, as well as more people have been introduced to climbing. There's more people coming to our outdoor spaces too. Um, in some ways it's good and it's awesome because there's a lot more people climbing. And in some ways it's challenging because, um, not everyone has had the same kind of mentorship that maybe people had in the sport a few years ago. Um, so you run into maybe some more safety issues outside? Um, so I think that kind of all of the, like, mentorship stuff is still kind of catching up to the number of people that have come into the sport recently. I was saying, I'd love to hear more about Bipoc beater. Uh, basically, basically the the the who, what, when, where why of it, um, uh, what it is. Um, uh, why there's a need for it. And, um, how would someone connect with it? Who? Who's interested? Yeah, absolutely. Um, so Bipoc beta again, Bipoc being black, indigenous, and people of color, um, was a, uh, it is an initiative of the Twin Cities chapter of the American Alpine Club, or at least that's what it was when we started, uh, running events back in 2021. Um, and now we've kind of rebranded, um, because Bipoc initiatives of the Twin Cities chapter of the American Alpine Club doesn't really roll off the tongue. And so, uh, um, with the formation of a leadership team, as of end of last year, uh, created the name Bipoc beta so people could find us a bit better and we could promote ourselves a little bit better. Um, our mission, generally speaking, is basically for the. Uh, creation of opportunities for, uh, Bipoc climbers, uh, by and for Bipoc climbers to, uh, create community, uh, opportunities for education. Um, and, uh, also be an advocate for those, uh, seeking, uh, higher opportunities in climbing things like guiding or opportunities for, uh, getting into the mentorship space. As Sarah mentioned, uh, there is this idea of a mentorship gap. It has been since I helped co-found the AC Twin Cities chapter back in 2016, and it's been a discussion since then, and it's not really something that's easily solved with how popular climbing is. So, um, you know, getting more folks who are comfortable being mentors and, uh, resources, uh, not only for the climbing community, but also for the communities that they come from and would like to see more representation from. Um is a really important aspect of of what we do at Bipoc data. Um, and uh, and so helping with creating resources and, and pathways into, um, even, uh, paid guiding opportunities. Um, is something that we look at. Um, why it's important. Um, I think as, as Sarah mentioned, the popularity of not only, um, uh, our group and community, but also the uh, LGBTQ plus groups, of which there are several. Um, we actually did a collaboration recently with Queer Beta, um, that also runs out of the co-op. Um, and we did that collaboration over at Minneapolis Building Project. Um, outline is another, uh, popular group, um, that we hope to partner with in the future. Um. Uh, several, uh, women trans femme centric groups. Um, another group that we're collaborating with, uh, climb ASL, uh, which is a group that runs out of Minneapolis bouldering project primarily. Um, but um, uh, is, uh, geared toward the ASL community. Um, but all these, uh, you know, have the common thread of having, uh, communities that historically have not felt represented or uh, um, seen themselves, uh, either as participants, um, for the first part and then, uh, to my point, earlier, uh, seeing themselves at the table or in opportunities of being guides themselves or seeing in this these higher levels aspects of, of climbing. Uh, as instructors or um, mentors or uh, you know, any of these, these type of things. So, um, I think it's important to have these, these, uh, opportunities where folks can, uh, find other climbers that, um, represent their communities, uh, to create these, uh, spaces where they then can feel, um. That they're gaining confidence and competence in climbing. Um, and so that when they go out into the greater community and go outdoors, um, that they have this, uh, greater connection to, to the sports, um, to the community and that they, uh, don't feel this, um, sense of otherness that can sometimes happen. Um, in not just climbing, but in other, um, and other outdoor recreation activities from not seeing themselves or not being not having been included. Um, and, uh, in these type of activities or, or seeing their people that look like them, who represent as them, um, in these activities. And so if if someone is listening to this podcast and I hope somebody will. Um, my mom will. My mom too, probably, yeah. If someone listens to this podcast and says, that really sounds amazing, I would love to connect with Bipoc, but how would they go about doing that? Yeah, they can, uh, reach out to myself, um, on Instagram. Uh, Royal Caribbean, um, or our Bipoc beta, uh, Instagram as well. Um, uh, there's a little bit more content on mine just because, again, the, uh, I kind of been the sole organizer for this work up until the end of last year. So our organization known as Bipoc beta is relatively new. Um, but there's there is contact. Contact content on our Instagram and contact info, as well as a nice calendar of events. We generally, on average, we're on about eight events a month, so plenty of opportunities to come meet us and the leadership team and the community that we've fostered over the years. Um, as well as, uh, I have an email list, uh, with about. I want to say 5 to 600 people on it. Um, they send out a monthly newsletter about our events and, uh, to the point of, uh, outdoor recreation. Um, most of our events are, are indoor climbing events, but, uh, we do have opportunities for outdoor climbing and mentorship and things of that sort that get, uh, publicized there on Instagram. Perfect. Um, so with the time we have remaining, I've got about three more questions. And I want to kind of look forward to the future. Um, and so we'd love to know, uh, what are some goals you set for yourself with regards to rock climbing? If you'd like to share those. I've always got a project and at least one of the Minnesota roots. Is it top secret? Can you share it? No, it's not top secret. Um, I spent a lot of time climbing at Willow River, which actually is technically in Wisconsin, even though I know this is a Minnesota podcast, but we won't tell anybody. Yeah. Um, there's quite a few outs there I'd like to like to finish this season. Um, and then I think probably the other goal for me is that I always like to use climbing as an opportunity to travel to new places. Um, so I have a couple of other new climbing areas around the US I'd really love to check out. Uh, for me, I've, uh, plateaued physically for a long time. So a long standing goal has been, uh, um, Sigma. It's a kind of one of the kind of like. Yeah, one of the the kind of kind of the project, uh, in the 512 range. Um, and that's at sandstone. Um, work ethic is another one in that 512 range. That's a classic. That's at, um, uh, Red wing. Um, so, yeah. Uh. uh, basically kind of, um, making it to that 512 range, which has been elusive, great for me for quite some time and will be harder, uh, as I've gotten gotten a little bit worse, backsliding. Um, but part of that is, again, to what Sarah was talking about earlier. Um, uh, I put more, uh, more resources into another goal of mine, which is becoming a better ice climbing and rock climbing instructor. Um, just to be able, from a mentorship perspective, uh, teach what I know to give back to the community. Um, but also, uh, have some other paid and, uh, volunteer opportunities. Um, to make sure that there's more, uh, instruction in the community and more opportunities to, uh. Do this safely and, um, be able to pass along good best practices amongst the community. Yeah. Um, rock climbing, gym climbing. It has. It has evolved significantly over the past decade plus. Um, and it's even now it's it's an Olympic sport now, which is incredible. Um, what do you see? Where do you see it going into the future? Do you have any any if you look into a crystal ball of gym climbing, rock climbing in Minnesota or or elsewhere, where do you see it going? Hard to say. Other than that, I expect it to continue to keep growing. Um, I think also climbing in the past has been a lot of the development of outdoor climbing areas, and a lot of the organizations have been very grassroots. There's not really any like sort of organization kind of running things, um, at a top level. So I think maybe as we start to see more and more crowds in some areas, I think we might start to run into the fact that we maybe need some more organization instead of just having a little like the grassroots kind of communities that we do have. Um, but I don't I don't know exactly what that looks like yet. There are some national organizations that are like the Alpine Club and the access funds that do kind of help try to organize some of those more grassroots outdoor communities. But I think we'll see what the future holds. Um, yeah, totally echo that and that. Um, it's hard to see where exactly things are going to kind of go and look, but I think the one guarantee is that it will grow and grow at a rate that, uh, will could be hard to sustain if we aren't proactive about, um, making sure, uh, we are intentional about our access to these spaces and our, um, environmental impacts, um, as climbers and as, um, stewards of the land. Um, I'm looking forward to, um, uh, just seeing the more diverse climbing community come up. Um, I think, um, uh, again, beyond my group seeing all the other, uh, just stoked grassroots climbing organizations who are bringing their communities into climbing and bringing their communities into climbing that, um, in ways that, uh, are just, um, unique to them and bringing their communities into climbing. I'm excited to see how that, uh, influences the climbing community and what the that future looks like. Um, especially as we get more, um, indigenous voices into, um, the climbing landscape. Um, I think we can look at environmental and land stewardship from a very, um. Western colonialist, colonialist lens. And so I'm excited to see what there is to learn from the original stewards of this land, of how to manage these, these spaces and, um, care for the land in the ways that we see it being a problem in the future. Um, I think those voices being part of that conversation, um, I think can bring back some of that, um, lost knowledge, um, uh, to these type of, uh, discussions. Um, and yeah, and I'm looking forward to, uh, hopefully seeing our next, uh, Minnesota Olympian talking about the Olympics and getting back to that point. So one final question before we wrap this up. Uh, I want to be respectful of y'all's time today, and I really appreciate you spending the time here. Um, but I would love to know from y'all. Um, what advice what what piece of advice or pieces of advice would you give to someone who is just starting out gym climbing and wants to get into the get into the sport? Yeah, I would say, I think, um, if you're just starting climbing, first thing I always tell everybody is don't forget to use your feet. It's a lot easier to stand up than do pull ups up the wall. Um, and then I would say, like, even just stick with it, right. I think it's people start to kind of explore all these different training plans. But I think really when you're first starting out, the way to get better at climbing is just to keep climbing and stick with it. And I would say to remember that it's supposed to be fun. I think sometimes people put a lot of pressure on themselves about getting better at a certain pace, or like if they can think they should be climbing at a certain grade and they can't climb that, I think. Just remember that you're just here to have a good time outside with friends, and that's kind of what I tell myself a lot when I'm climbing outside. So that would be my advice. Absolutely. Um, yeah. Similarly, when I, when I, um, have new climbers, um, uh, other than just letting letting them go and just having fun with it, um, you know, uh, technique be damned at the beginning. Um, but eventually, when they get around to asking about technique. Yeah, moving your hips and looking at your what your feet are doing, literally looking at your feet, um, and moving those hips, I like to call it. We've talked about, um, the flow of climbing and the problem solving aspect. I also use the analogy of treating, uh, climbing like dancing. And so the the more you can get your hips involved. Um, if you have ever seen people or been a person that's climbed or danced without using their hips, you know how weird that is. Um, so the earlier that you can figure out the weirdness of moving your hips on the wall, uh, the sooner that becomes more natural and figure out the, um, uh, the benefits of doing so. Um, and it's a Sarah Sarah's point. Um. You know? Yeah. Just having having fun with it and not comparing yourself to others and knowing that, you know, yeah, those problems will be around. And, um, uh, one of the formative, uh, experiences I had as an early climber was, um, again, going out to the North Shore, uh, on, uh, I think it was my second or third time out and, um, seeing like this, uh, this older gentleman, um, who was just must have climbed out there like, over his. You know, hundreds of times and was just kind of doing laps. It was early morning, beautiful sunrise, and he was topping out, I think like A57 or A58. Um, so, you know, an easier climb. And, uh, and he was just having a blast on what must have been a climb he's done hundreds of times. Um, and so that really stuck with me. Just it's not always about challenge. It's not always about doing something, you know, next level. Um, sometimes it's about enjoying the movement, enjoying the fact that you're at least for when you're climbing outside, that you're in a beautiful environment, um, and that you're getting to use your body for something besides sitting around and doing work. And I think you, uh, somehow you manage to find the one thing, uh, that that climbing and golf have in common. And it's the, the importance of of moving your hips. So I'm picturing rotel is like Shakira on the wall over here. Check this out. Oh, absolutely. I tell people like, yeah, the first time you're going to use your hips climbing, it's like somebody who doesn't know how to dance the first time. Using their hips can be weird and might be wrong a few times, but, uh, you got to do it, um, to figure it out. I really appreciate y'all taking the time to to share with us today. It's been awesome. So yeah, thanks so much for reaching out. It was great talking to you. Thanks for having us. Of Wow, that was an incredibly inspiring conversation. Thanks to Sarah and Rodale for taking the time to discuss Minnesota's climbing scene. It's clear that climbing in Minnesota is about so much more than just topping out. Absolutely. I think one of the things that kind of hit me most about their interview is that they talked about your mental headspace when you're climbing, and how it kind of transports you to a totally different place, and it gets you to kind of think about something differently because you're thinking about your next move and not necessarily what's going on in your personal life. So but it really was inspiring. I think, um, talking more about how we have gyms that are dedicated to climbing and co-ops, um, that kind of support communities and their members, but also promoting diversity in the climbing scene, I think is really helpful. But they're mentality and their excitement around it, even though it can be scary at times, it was really inspiring. And I will also say one of the things that hit me is that they talked about how moral support, though you tend to kind of compete against each other sometimes, was a key part of them doing better in their day to day. So it's clear that climbing in Minnesota is about just so much more like Sarah said. And we're really excited to see the climbing community come together to support and uplift each other. Yeah. And I don't know, I, I am one of those people that has a fear of heights. So I had to try to set that aside as we listen to this conversation. But, um, I, you know, I think one of the things that really inspired me is the wealth of climbing opportunities that we have right in our own backyard here in Minnesota. Who needs to go west when we've got world class climbing? Just a short drive away. You've got Duluth, Winona, sandstone, Interstate State Park, Vertical endeavors, Minnesota climbing Co-op, Minneapolis bouldering project. There are just so many opportunities to give climbing a try. Yeah that's right. And I you know, I have some friends who are really excited about climbing and I've gone a few times with them, and it's just fun to see where it can take you. Um, you know, Sarah and Rodel talked about how they were able to, um, sort of find a community that would then take them out to do climbing on cliffs or even talked about ice climbing. And so you can start as a brand new person and going to one of the gyms and just really find a community and expand from there and maybe become a more seasoned climber as you go. But mostly it's about having fun and being around people that enjoy doing the same activities that you're doing. Well, I want to just thank, uh, Sarah and Rodale again for joining us. And thanks to all our listeners for joining us on Explore Minnesota more. Until next time, keep exploring, keep challenging yourself, and keep building those connections that make our outdoor community in Minnesota so special.